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 Post subject: Juggernaut, Stand Firm and chainpushing
 Post Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 7:08 am 
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Consider the following situation, where S has Stand Firm and J has Juggernaut and is blitzing T, X being other players:
_____
XSX
XTX
B

Can B use Juggernaut to cancel S's Stand Firm and push him into the crowd?


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 Post Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 8:19 am 
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Depends on who you ask... the rules aren't clear. We had this debate a while ago. I think Juggernaut should prevent all stand firm usage when blitzing, Galak thinks it should only affect the player being blitzed (If that's not right Tom please post!)

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 Post Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 9:48 am 
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At leat looking at the rulebook I'd say that you can't crowd push him. Juggernaut seems to affect only the player being blocked as part of the blitz action, whereas in Stand Firm the chain push back part is separate from the part where blocking is concerned. So, I'd say Juggernaut only has an effect on the player being blocked and no one else.

Juggernaut wrote:
then opposing players may not use their Fend, Stand Firm or Wrestle skills against blocks,


Stand Firm wrote:
He may choose to ignore being pushed by ‘Pushed’ results, and to have 'Knock-down' results knock the player down in the square where he started. If a player is pushed back into a player with using Stand Firm then neither player moves.


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 Post Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 11:41 am 
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In my simple view, blocking skills only affect the player being blocked.

So Juggernaut can only be used on a player being blocked, not on someone behind him being chain-pushed.

Hope this helps.

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 Post Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 2:01 pm 
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Haven't checked the wording, but it would be weird of the attacker had strip ball, the chainpushed player had the ball, and that caused the ball to be stripped free.

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 Post Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 2:13 pm 
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I agree, stand firm would work on the second guy

oh and you have no player marked J in your diagram ;]


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 Post Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 3:23 pm 
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ianwilliams wrote:
Depends on who you ask... the rules aren't clear. We had this debate a while ago. I think Juggernaut should prevent all stand firm usage when blitzing, Galak thinks it should only affect the player being blitzed (If that's not right Tom please post!)
You are correct ... it is my firm opinion that the rules for Juggernaut only effect the person being blocked ... not anyone chanpushed.

Its a simple typo by me that is causing the confusion. I'm not sure why I typed players instead of player in the skill description. My only thought is that in the early days of the Vault work on the rules we were going to allow Multiple Block on blitzes and that is why Juggernaut was originally written players in its description. It was never the intention of the rule to work beyond the initial block.

Galak

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Tue May 19, 2009 6:10 pm 
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Grumbledook wrote:
oh and you have no player marked J in your diagram ;]
i changed it to B for a better alignment (i had hoped in vain that the "code" tag would result in a fixed-width font) and forgot about the initial description

thanks for the answer


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 Post Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 1:37 am 
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I can't argue with Galak on intent, but I think making Juggernaut (and by corollary Grab) prevent any use of SF (SS) when being used gives Juggs/Grabs a nice boost making the "guarantees" of SF/SS a little less valuable in a high skill environment.

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 Post Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 1:50 am 
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juggernaut is already plenty good imo

cancels wrestle, fend, stand firm, can change a both down to a push

I don't tihnk it is needed to cancel stand firm on secondary pushes

as others have pointed out other skills don't do the same, ie tackle, grab and stripball


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 Post Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 2:52 am 
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But Juggs only works on blitzes - even for cancelling skills - so that reduces the effectiveness too. At least grab cancels SS when blocking or blitzing.

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 9:19 am 
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but grab cancels SS only on the original push, not the secondary ones


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 Post Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 11:55 am 
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My reading was that Juggs only works on the player actually being blocked too.

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 Post Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 12:25 pm 
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khudzlin wrote:
but grab cancels SS only on the original push, not the secondary ones
I agree that the consistent application of the skills is that they don't work past the initial block.

Galak

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 Post Posted: Wed May 20, 2009 1:15 pm 
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Stand firm also isn't as good as it used to be

making it even weaker would truly suck as it lost quite a big (imo) advantage


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